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In this Pinnacle Post interview, Riley Malins - co-founder & Chief Operating Officer at Avatars Global - discusses his journey from hospitality to Avatars Global, the rise of AI‑powered avatars and brand storytelling. Riley shares practical lessons from entrepreneurship and product focus, with takeaways for marketers, founders and tech teams.

Q: What did you want to be when you were growing up?

A: I wanted to be a doctor. Not because it was what I truly desired, but because it represented a more traditional pathway to success that I could visualise. If you asked me now, I’d probably say a writer, something more creative, but when I was younger, I didn't think I had that ability. It just goes to show you can never really anticipate where life will take you.

It just goes to show you can never really anticipate where life will take you.

Q: You’ve had a dynamic journey from school to where you are now. What was your mindset right after finishing school?

A: I had a very atypical journey that I think many kids who don't know what they want to do can relate to. I went straight to university because that’s what I was told to do, but I went too young, I didn't know myself well enough and didn't know what really drove me. I did two years at Auckland University, starting with law, then swapping to business (where I failed quite a few papers because I was more interested in the social aspect), and finally doing my last six months in an arts degree majoring in philosophy.

I went straight to university because that’s what I was told to do, but I went too young, I didn't know myself well enough and didn't know what really drove me.

Q: What led you away from university and into the world of work?

A: I realised I didn't understand the value of money or my own education and was just racking up debt. I got out and worked in hospitality, starting at Iguana in Hamilton. I loved the social aspect of hospitality, but I’ve always been a big believer in education, so I studied at Queenstown Resort College for a couple of years.

I then returned to Hamilton and worked at the Good Neighbour in Rototuna where I went from Duty Manager to Bar Manager to Assistant Manager within the space of 12 months. Good George then sent me to Auckland to open their Mission Bay Bar which was hard work but really satisfying.

Q: What did you learn from your time in hospitality?

A: Hospitality is where I did a lot of growing. I went from being rebellious and anti-authority to gaining invaluable soft skills such as communication and conflict resolution that are transferable across any job. Bars are a great equaliser; you meet people you wouldn't otherwise be exposed to. I advise anyone unsure of their path to go work in a bar. The exposure I got from leading teams of 20-plus people in my early 20s was invaluable.

I advise anyone unsure of their path to go work in a bar. The exposure I got from leading teams of 20-plus people in my early 20s was invaluable.

Q: Tell me about leaving hospitality to try a sales role and then returning to education.

A: Sales didn't light my soul on fire, and I found people using behavioural psychology to make money a little bit evil and it didn’t sit well with me. I was working for a business development manager for a creative agency, and being around creative people made me realise I wanted to do something similar. I decided to go back to university in late 2019 to do it properly, which was fortuitous timing as not long after COVID struck and the hospitality industry really struggled.

Q: How did your second attempt at university go?

A: The energy and attention I brought the second time were magnitudes above the first. I finished my Bachelor of Business (Public Relations and Strategic Management) in two years by doing five papers a semester and summer school. I was the vice president of a communications club, and my team won the annual Waikato Management School Case Competition. That led to an internship with Dynamic Media, where my primary client was the Waikato Chamber of Commerce. They gave me an incredible opportunity to interview all the Waikato Business Awards winners which taught me a lot about business success and the different pathways to achieving it.

Riley and his team who won the annual Waikato Management School Case Competition at the University of Waikato.

Q: After that, you started your own digital marketing agency. What then shifted your focus toward the tech startup space?

A: Tech was moving in a way that truly interested me as someone who grew up on science fiction. In early 2023, the metaverse and virtual reality were becoming mainstream, so I quit working for myself which was a hard decision and joined Non Fungible Labs (NFL) in Auckland as a copywriter.

Q: What was the startup culture like there?

A: It was high intensity and high pressure. I was investing my soul into it, working well over my salaried hours. It was amazing, though; as a writer, I saw people genuinely read my work and get excited about it. We worked with massive names. I ran point on the world's first token-gated playlists with Spotify, worked with FIFA on a mobile game app, and collaborated with Authentic Brands Group and Muhammad Ali's estate. That exposure really helped me later with Avatars Global, so I wouldn’t get intimidated working with big players.

I ran point on the world's first token-gated playlists with Spotify, worked with FIFA on a mobile game app, and collaborated with Authentic Brands Group and Muhammad Ali's estate. That exposure really helped me later with Avatars Global, so I wouldn’t get intimidated working with big players.

Q: You came into the NFT (nonfungible token) space during the transition to a bear market. Did that different perspective help you?

A: My timing was horrible, starting just as the bull run ended, but my viewpoint actually helped identify the issues with NFTs, namely the lack of utility at launch. It taught me that timing is so important and that successful projects need to tell a story and build a community around people invested in that story. I learned to always ask, "What does this actually do for the user? What utility does this have?". That frame point is what I brought into Avatars Global now that the market has transitioned into generative AI (artificial intelligence).

It taught me that timing is so important and that successful projects need to tell a story and build a community around people invested in that story.

Q: Non-Fungible Labs eventually rolled into Futureverse, leading to massive redundancies. How did that experience become a catalyst for Avatars Global?

A: Well, when one door closes another opens right. I got approached by friends I’d made at NFL to start our own venture. We got together and thought, "How do we do this for ourselves?". That’s how Avatars Global was born.

Q: As a co-founder, what is your approach to building a strong team?

A: You just need to be a good sort, work hard and play hard - it’s cliche but oh so true in this industry. I also believe in treating everybody with kindness. When people have an opportunity, they are first going to go to the people they like. Talent is necessary, but the difference maker in cutting-edge fields is: Are you somebody that people want to be in the trenches with? Starting an unfunded startup is a war, and you need to get along and be able to talk openly and honestly. Disagreements are just different viewpoints, and the best ideas come from combining those perspectives.

Talent is necessary, but the difference maker in cutting-edge fields is: Are you somebody that people want to be in the trenches with? Starting an unfunded startup is a war, and you need to get along and be able to talk openly and honestly. Disagreements are just different viewpoints, and the best ideas come from combining those perspectives.

Q: What’s the biggest challenge you face today at Avatars Global?

A: Saying no. As a startup, you are hungry for every revenue-generating opportunity. If you'd asked me 12 months ago, it would have been sticking the course when there's no land in sight. People think being a founder is fun, and I do love it, but it’s also like chewing glass. You need to be relentlessly committed to your course and truly believe in what you are building because if you don’t believe in it then why should someone else?

People think being a founder is fun, and I do love it, but it’s also like chewing glass. You need to be relentlessly committed to your course and truly believe in what you are building because if you don’t believe in it then why should someone else?

Q: You’ve mentioned that Avatars Global is largely bootstrapped. Have you tried getting funding for Avatars Global or any associated projects, and what was that process like?

A: We have pursued funding for a specific project we are part-owners in, an action-adventure AI companion app called Team XYZ. This app is built around social good, aiming to encourage kids to use their phones less and do more positive things by providing them with a peer companion who keeps them on track. We have been pitching that project for 18 months, but we came to market too early. When we started talking about companion AI 18 months ago, people were asking, "what is this?". Nowadays, it is a much more established concept.

Q: Why did you choose to forego outside funding for Avatars Global itself?

A: We really valued our independence. We knew we would be underselling ourselves if we gave away a slice of the pie at that early stage. When your cap table is already split five ways among the original co-founders, bringing someone in for 10 percent didn't make sense. We believed in ourselves and knew we had the talent. We knew we were operating in a new, complete blue ocean space and wanted to give it a solid crack ourselves.

We believed in ourselves and knew we had the talent. We knew we were operating in a new, complete blue ocean space and wanted to give it a solid crack ourselves.

Q: That level of bootstrapping must have required immense sacrifice.

A: Sacrifice and success go hand in hand. Our team has sacrificed a lot, from surviving on ramen noodles to internal strife with loved ones. For myself, I worked full-time to support myself and put money into Avatars Global, averaging 60 hours a week for about two years. Last year I was deep in the red, but now Avatars Global is supporting my family and we are now on track for multiple millions in revenue by the end of the next financial year.

For myself, I worked full-time to support myself and put money into Avatars Global, averaging 60 hours a week for about two years. Last year I was deep in the red, but now Avatars Global is supporting my family and we are now on track for multiple millions in revenue by the end of the next financial year.

Q: Looking back now at the intense journey of establishing Avatars Global and finding success, what did you wish you knew that you didn't know before you began?

A: I wish I had known that we were a little too early. We positioned ourselves as the high-end, enterprise level solution - if you want the best avatar in the world, you come to us. We are building UI (user interface) for AI, powered by custom Large Language Models (LLMs), to deliver real-world solutions in education, health, tech, and entertainment. However, trying to pitch that concept meant we spent a lot of time pitching, growing, and hunting for clients because the market wasn't entirely ready yet. We were relentless in our positioning, but if I had known we were slightly ahead of the curve, we might have focused a little more on building foundational elements from the bottom up, which I’m having to do now.

Q: If you could go back, would you have started Avatars Global earlier?

A: No. The industry we operate in didn't exist even three years ago. Every step of my path - my time in hospitality, sales, running my digital marketing business, and working at Nonfungible Labs - prepared me for the role I am in now. I have no regrets.

Q: Given you've had an unconventional path, moving from law to philosophy to hospitality and then into tech, looking back now, do you think that you always had that entrepreneurial spirit in you?

A: 100%. My mother, a psychologist, started her own psychology business when I was young, and she is one of my biggest role models in business because I saw the changes that her entrepreneurship brought into our life. I realised it is the ticket to financial freedom in this day and age. I've also always had a rebellious streak and am still not good at being told what to do (much to my wife’s delight). When I was in hospitality, all I wanted was to own my own bar. I saw the success of the Good George founders and wanted to do that myself. As I grew, I realised that hospitality is really a young person’s game. When tech started aligning with the science fiction I grew up with in the '90s, I knew that's where I wanted to be involved. I’m a firm believer that luck is generally opportunity meeting preparedness, and I’ve been constantly preparing for this.

I’m a firm believer that luck is generally opportunity meeting preparedness, and I’ve been constantly preparing for this.

Q: What advice do you have for someone wanting to start their own business?

A: You need to work bloody hard, harder than if you had a regular job. You must be prepared to sacrifice, particularly socialising. You need to be a zealot about what you’re building. Doubt can’t seep in; you have to be relentlessly committed because you never know when the tipping point is.

You need to work bloody hard, harder than if you had a regular job. You must be prepared to sacrifice, particularly socialising. You need to be a zealot about what you’re building. Doubt can’t seep in; you have to be relentlessly committed because you never know when the tipping point is.

However, you also need to find a good support network and remember to find time for the things that give you joy, like guilt-free pleasure time. If you are always grinding, you wear down quickly, and you don’t know how long the journey will take. The goal is financial freedom so you can enjoy time with family, so if the whole journey is miserable, what's the point? You must make sure your journey is sustainable.

If you are always grinding, you wear down quickly, and you don’t know how long the journey will take. The goal is financial freedom so you can enjoy time with family, so if the whole journey is miserable, what's the point? You must make sure your journey is sustainable.

Q: What are your career highlights and lowlights?

A: My greatest high is realising I really enjoyed seeing other people grow into themselves and take professional steps. It’s an incredible feeling when you’ve helped somebody else on their journey. Other highs are the pinch me moments, such as dealing with global companies with known leaders in their field, whose names I can’t say without breaking NDAs. This interview is a cool, full-circle moment for me as well, given my history interviewing business success stories.

For lowlights, I’ve been fired once and made redundant once. I’ve lost big contracts and wondered how my business was going to feed people. Those down times are confronting because you question your value when others don't see what you think about yourself; but all down times are opportunities for growth.

I’ve been fired once and made redundant once. I’ve lost big contracts and wondered how my business was going to feed people. Those down times are confronting because you question your value when others don't see what you think about yourself; but all down times are opportunities for growth.

Q: How do you deal with the high stress and pressure inherent in leading a new startup?

A: I am very good at compartmentalising things and keeping a calm head in a crisis. Hospitality was an amazing job for learning this, dealing with millions of minor crises at once in a busy bar, managing egos, and handling outbursts. My natural disposition is quite calm and chilled - a classic Kiwi beach bum - which helps me step back and decide if something is a manufactured crisis or something serious.

Some of the Avatars Global team in the design studio.

Q: What are your thoughts on personal brand and network?

A: I go in and out of thinking I need to invest in it, but I don't like getting caught up in the performative aspect. I’ve managed social media accounts for a decade, but I avoid having a lot of personal social media. I know myself; I have an addictive personality, and I don’t want to feed the validation-seeking that comes with the likes and comments. Right now, I'm too busy building the foundations of Avatars Global to dedicate the relentless commitment required to grow on social media.

Q: Many of our young professional readers in their early twenties are considering an OE (Overseas Experience). You didn't do one, but what advice would you give to someone who is thinking about traveling or working abroad?

A: Go for it. I was fortunate that my parents took me traveling quite a bit when I was younger, which meant I didn't feel that drive later in life. However, the growth I've seen in people who have done an OE is incredible. New Zealand is quite isolated and can be a monoculture. If you haven't been exposed to other cultures, it is definitely one of those things you should do. Life experience is so invaluable, especially learning about different cultures and expanding your worldview. If you don't know what you want to do, I advise you to travel and go work in some bars around the world to meet different people.

Life experience is so invaluable, especially learning about different cultures and expanding your worldview. If you don't know what you want to do, I advise you to travel and go work in some bars around the world to meet different people.

Q: What does Riley stand for?

A: Perseverance, kindness, and good times. Entrepreneurship is a hard path and not for the faint of heart, so you have to take the moments that light up your spirit and set your soul on fire. I’m a big believer in the small things, like a coffee with a sunrise. Perseverance has always been a key trait for me, but kindness is also so important.

Entrepreneurship is a hard path and not for the faint of heart, so you have to take the moments that light up your spirit and set your soul on fire.

Q: What's next for Riley and Avatars Global?

A: What’s next for Riley is enjoying the journey both personally and professionally. I’m blessed to be a new father, and I’m focused on being there for my little girl and not sacrificing this precious time. I work from home and have a clear pathway to achieving financial freedom in my 40s. Professionally, I am focused on building my team and ensuring Avatars Global prospers. We have been selective and learnt from our mistakes, and now I can unequivocally say that our team members are heavy hitters, best of the best, absolute weapons in their field. We have the people who can take a project and help it become a household software program. I’m enjoying the immense growth of Avatars Global and being at the forefront of an industry where, thankfully, we know we're not going to be replaced by an AI. I'm taking the time to stop and smell the flowers and enjoy this hell of a ride.

Q: For young professionals thinking about their financial futures, do you have any wisdom or advice that you could offer?

A: Stop drinking so much. Health is wealth so invest in your health. It doesn't matter how many zeros are in your bank account if you're not able to enjoy the lifestyle because you’ve punished your body. This is a lesson I wish I had learnt years ago.

It doesn't matter how many zeros are in your bank account if you're not able to enjoy the lifestyle because you’ve punished your body.

Q: What advice would you give your younger self?

A: Just put yourself out there. I was always too scared to put myself out there when I was younger because I was afraid of being cringe and not looking cool. I regret buying into the idea that it was uncool to be smart. If people laugh at you for trying something you’re not good at, they’re just scared of looking like that themselves. We need to fight the rising tide of anti-intellectualism and the tall poppy syndrome that tells people not to stand out.

I regret buying into the idea that it was uncool to be smart. If people laugh at you for trying something you’re not good at, they’re just scared of looking like that themselves. We need to fight the rising tide of anti-intellectualism and the tall poppy syndrome that tells people not to stand out.

Q: Finally, if neither time nor resources were a constraint, what ultimate goal or dream would you pursue?

A: One would be writing. I have a 60,000-word manuscript, and I would love to just write, explore, and build worlds. The other dream, which will expose what a nerd I am, is to become a Pokémon Master and try to compete in the World Championships!

About Avatars Global

Avatars Global blends character design, AI and storytelling to create custom 3D avatars and digital brand mascots that work across platforms and industries. Their avatars power engagement in marketing, film, AR/VR and more while delivering immersive content and experiences that help brands connect, resonate and stand out in a digital world.

Visit the website here: https://www.avatarsglobal.com/

About Team XYZ

Team XYZ is reinventing screen time for kids with AI‑powered avatars, real‑world rewards and storytelling. Grounded in trusted child‑psychology frameworks, their smart app encourages healthy development such as fitness, learning and social skills in a safe, engaging digital space. Gamified design and partnerships help turn play into genuine progress.

Visit the website here: https://teamxyz.com/

About Futureverse (previously Non Fungible Labs)

Futureverse is a next‑generation technology company focused on interoperable digital worlds. Combining AI, blockchain infrastructure and creative tooling, it helps brands, creators and communities build engaging experiences across gaming, entertainment and sport with an emphasis on digital identity, content creation and seamless connections between platforms.

Visit the website here: https://www.futureverse.com/

About Waikato Chamber of Commerce

The Waikato Chamber of Commerce is the region’s independent business network, founded in 1906, connecting and advocating for businesses across the Waikato. Through events, advocacy, and capability-building, the Chamber helps members connect, grow, and succeed by leveraging its links into the New Zealand and International Chambers of Commerce networks to amplify the region’s voice.

Visit the website here: https://www.waikatochamber.co.nz/

About Dynamic Media

Dynamic Media helps brands connect and grow with creative video, digital content and targeted campaigns. The team blends smart strategy with technical know‑how to deliver memorable stories and measurable results while supporting clients across web, social and events with fresh ideas, responsive service and a focus on outcomes.

Visit the website here: https://www.dynamicmedia.co.nz/

About University of Waikato

The University of Waikato is a leading tertiary institution in Aotearoa New Zealand, renowned for innovative research, diverse academic programmes, and a vibrant campus culture. With world-class teaching and strong industry connections, Waikato empowers future-ready graduates to make real impact across New Zealand and beyond.

Visit the website here: https://www.waikato.ac.nz/

About Good George (incl Good Neighbour in description)

Good George is a Waikato‑born brewery, distillery and hospitality team known for fresh, flavour‑forward beers and ciders, plus small‑batch gins. With welcoming venues such as the Good Neighbour and a community‑minded approach, Good George serves up quality drinks, friendly service and easy‑going good times - perfect for after‑work catch‑ups and weekend gatherings.

Visit the website here: https://www.goodgeorge.kiwi.nz/

About Queenstown Resort College

Queenstown Resort College (QRC) delivers industry‑focused education in tourism, hospitality and adventure. Combining practical learning with strong employer connections, QRC helps students build real‑world skills and launch careers in Aotearoa’s vibrant visitor economy with a focus on professional standards, service excellence and outcomes that stand up in the real world.

Visit the website here: https://www.qrc.ac.nz/

About Iguana Restaurant

Iguana Restaurant in Hamilton, New Zealand, serves approachable, flavour‑forward dishes in a relaxed, contemporary setting. From casual lunches to lively evenings with friends or colleagues, the team pairs fresh, seasonal plates with a well‑curated drinks list and warm service - making it an easy pick for after‑work catch‑ups, celebrations and everything in between.

Visit the website here: https://iguana.co.nz/

About University of Auckland

The University of Auckland is a comprehensive university in Tāmaki Makaurau, offering programmes across many disciplines and pursuing research that benefits Aotearoa New Zealand’s communities and industries. With strong partnerships and a focus on innovation and sustainability, the University helps students, staff and organisations turn ideas into impact.

Visit the website here: https://www.auckland.ac.nz/

Riley Malins